Quote from Patricia's Positional Paper

Many Christian leaders do not believe or support the fact that the believers walk is by faith in response to the covenant promises of God. Therefore, they believe for anything to be valid, it must be delivered to the believer in a certain way – usually by a sovereign, supernatural visitation. It is also believed by many that “spiritual encounters” are only for the elite (such as specially chosen 5-fold ministry gifts) or the very mature (both spiritually and physically). As a result there is a lack of acknowledgment of the invitation the Holy Spirit is giving to His Body to enter into unseen Kingdom encounters

Dear Patricia,

I think that there might be confusion about what people (like myself) believe and what you may think we believe on this point. The way that much of your document is phrased sounds like people who disagree with some of points are not on in tune with what God is doing in current culture and in biblical history.

First of all, I personally do NOT believe that spiritual gifts and spiritual experiences are for the mature or the elite. Many of the people in the Bible who experienced visions, dreams, angelic encounters were initially called by God as youth (Jeremiah, Mary) through such spiritual experiences, or they were unsuspecting and even running from God (ie: Moses, Balaam, Paul).

My point of question is this: “Have you ever found a place in the Bible where men initiated these experiences at their own will?” (ie: “Today, I am going to the third heaven by faith,” “Now I will enter a trance”). God can choose whomever He wants to - they don't even have to be saved (Apostle Paul on the Damascus Road) to have such experiences.

It is not about elitism, but rather about relationship. Since God looks at the heart, He alone knows what was in the heart and clearly would not give gifts to those with the wrong heart (ie: Simon in Acts 8). I fully agree that the potential for anyone to walk in all of the gifts of the Spirit is there, but to teach that we can go there based on our own will through faith at any time is where it seems to me that we can enter into error.

So the concern I have is not with teaching to the potential of all believers having spiritual encounters; nor do I have a problem with opening people up through teaching to the fullness of the realms of the Spirit, teaching them to posture themselves (through faith and desire – I Cor. 14:1) to have spiritual experiences.

My concern lies with what is the practical application of the teaching. Relationship with God seems not to be factored into the application. Biblically, God initiates these experiences to establish relationship with Him, calling, present and future protection of His people, etc. . . .

Pursuit/desire/faith of the individual seem to form a large part of the equation, but not the whole equation. God still gives gifts as He wills. But then to “guide' people into which experience they can have (ie: now we are going to the third heaven) does not seem to be part of the relational/biblical dynamic. The biblical experiences are varied and not standardized. It does seem to be the case that when a person has been given a gift by God, they can operate in that gift at will. But even then, there are measures (ie: all of the people were healed, there was improvement, 2 people were healed and 1 not, etc…) It also seems that there are levels of gifting (measures of talents) and not everyone is at the same level. Although potential for all the levels is open to all believers, I don't know that we can activate whole roomfuls of people into high levels simply based on faith in God's covenant. If we teach this as the application to the doctrine, there will be massive discrepancy between the real and the imagined experiences that transpire.

I believe the main part of the controversy is coming out of how we apply the teaching. If we encourage all people to have one experience based on faith and God's covenant, and then activate a roomful of people into a “third heaven” experience, I think that we have entered into two errors, departing from the reason God gives the experience:

1) God does not “entrust” Himself to all men equally – He searches hearts and gives Himself away by degrees (see John 2:23, 24). He gave everyone the miracle, but not everyone the deeper part of Himself.

2) God does not “disclose” or “show” Himself to all men equally (John 14:21). “You shall seek Me and find Me when you search for me with all your heart.” This is true by description as well as prescription. Obviously, the Apostle John had a more intimate relationship with Jesus than all the other disciples – and hence, more was “disclosed” to Him. Yet he was the youngest (least mature?) of all the disciples. Yet something about his heart captured the heart of God. As well, Peter and James were evidently closed to Jesus than the rest of the 12 – they were invited into private areas that the rest of the disciples were not (the Mount of Transfiguration, the raising of Jairus' daghter, etc. ..)

Therefore, unlike healing, where the person is, or is not, healed when you pray “by faith”, subjective experiences at varying levels of relationship and heart conditions can lead to bizarre and even demonic experiences. We cannot factor out the initiation of God Himself in our application. Based on the previous Scripture I cited (John 2: 23-25), it does seem that God is much more willing to do miraculous signs than self-disclosure. Why? Because the signs can initiate relationship, but the deeper experiences demand pursuit, and often the initiation of God Himself. All of the biblical deeper experiences are initiated “by the will of God,” based on desire and pursuit/ (ie: to Peter, Jesus said “feed My sheep, and when Peter asked him about what would happen to John, Jesus said “What is that to you?” (John 21:22). This indicates that Jesus relates to different people in different ways. God initiated the third heaven with John: “Come up here.” And with Moses (and the elders) “Consecrate yourself/selves”, with Cornelius and with Peter in the trance. They did not say, “Because it is possible to have a trance, I will by faith have trance now.”

Thus, teaching and praxis have to factor in personal heart relationship with God and also callings. Peter was simply different by personality and calling than John.

It is difficult to put this into words, but I think the main controversy comes from teaching that since all the supernatural experiences of the Bible are possible, everyone can have every single one of them. When you teach this and apply it with stuff like the tangible miracles, the proof is in the pudding. With the subjective revelatory experiences, it is difficult to discern between the spurious and the real, what is imagined and what is substantive. Like Toronto, we have to teach the doctrine, there will be many and varied physical and spiritual manifestations that accompany the doctrine, but we couldn't tell everyone to shake as an application, simply because shaking was in the Bible. God sovereignly touched thousands of people in various and sundry ways, some of which were the same, and many of which were unique.

Anyways, continual dialogue will bring us closer together and the fullness of what God is doing will have a bigger container as a result. I appreciate your perseverance and humility always,

Much love,
Stacey

Hi Stacey,

Thanks so much for taking the time to process this point and to share your heart. I understand and agree with some of what you are saying but see other things from a different light.

First of all, I believe that FAITH is not just a choice of the soul to do something. True faith actually is ONLY born out of true relationship with the Holy Spirit. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word (rhema- Spirit quickened word). The posture that we flow in faith from is dependency upon God. You can "hear" through your own time with the Lord, through Bible Reading, through listening to a preacher illumine the scriptures...but WHEN faith is birthed -- the light goes on...you just know that you know...that is what gives you the ability to "act" upon the Word. It is not because your mind figured it out but because you received a revelation/illumination from the Lord...the penny dropped...and faith is birthed.

So., when you read the Word, for example, and find through revelation/illumination that the Gift of Tongues is available to you, you can act on that. The Holy Spirit illumines the promise, faith is stirred  and you step out in response.

Although I don't find any specific examples of believers receiving tongues by an act of faith rather than a sovereign outpouring, I know believers can and they do all the time...including myself 30 years ago. Speaking in tongues is a spiritual experience. The Word says that all things are possible only believe. The Word says, when you pray, believe that you receive and you shall have it.

In the example of Peter walking on water., there is not a direct promise that says believers can walk on water... but Peter's heart was quickened to go out on the water to meet with Jesus. He said, Lord, if that is You bid me come. Jesus said COME. Peter "heard" the voice of the Lord that produced faith and acted on it - thus walking on water. The desire was in his own soul but he still needed the "word" in order to release true faith.

As soon as Peter looked to himself, he sunk...why?...because he lost focus on the Lord and when he lost focus, he lost faith.

As a new Christian, I believed that Jesus was real and that I could worship Him. Jesus had not given me an open vision of Himself or any special tangible experience but the truth concerning Him and His presence with me was so real. As a result, of that faith, I responded by worshipping Him....and I still do....I worship Him whenever I want because I believe that He is . I don't need a special visitation to believe that the Lord is with me right now? I know He is...I talk to Him, walk with Him, worship Him and serve Him based on that faith...and not by sight.

Most of the time, I can't feel His presence....but I believe He is here...why? The Word says so.